Autonomous Cars Hit Reality Wall | MCA4

Welcome to the Morpheus Cyber Podcast. Today, autonomous cars hit reality wall. When cutting-edge tech meets stubborn humans, reality usually wins. Grab your phone and vote in our live polls. a-haw-slides.com-slash-m-c-a-4. Self-driving cars can navigate rush hour traffic, but apparently can't navigate consumer checkbooks. What's really steering adoption rates. India tried to force mandatory government tracking apps on smartphones. Then back down in five days, guess privacy advocates still have some fight. Open AI is throwing 10 billion at thrive holdings in another circular investment dance, strategic partnership, or elaborate financial shell game. Chinese hackers just launched brick storm at US infrastructure because apparently regular storms weren't destructive enough. Go along with us at a-haw-slides.com-m-c-a-4. Let's dive in. Hey, listen. Here we are, the sub number one podcast in the world. And by the sub billionaires of the century, ready to rock and roll everybody. Hey, Jim. Hey, guys. How's it going, guys? Great. Most excellent. Most excellent. Yeah. Just happy to be here with my pals. Discussing important subjects. Yeah, I was telling you guys earlier, I'm in AI nightmare a bit because one of the things I've been doing is working on a proxmox server, building that out and using AI for assistance. It always has the answers. The only problem is it's got Alzheimer's. It doesn't remember the last thing we talked about. Just say about 30 minutes before that, I have to remind it all the time. But once it's told what it didn't remember, yeah, you're right. So that was my nightmare. Yeah. That context management is the biggest issue with AI coders. They have these huge context windows. And then they basically wait until it fills completely up. Two million tokens or whatever. It fills up. And then they basically make you stop and wait for five, ten minutes while it cleans it all out and starts from scratch to where you have all this open window. And then fill it up again. I don't know why they can't more gracefully adjust the context window so that as you move along, it's not stopping for five minutes, ten minutes sometimes to clean and then pull thing up. And then not only that, it's still like 51st dates. Every time I step up to the prompt, it's like that movie where every morning she didn't remember who was her husband and her children. They had to start from ground zero. It reminds me of exactly that. Exactly. AI code like 51st dates. But Jim, for the non-technical people listening, maybe you wanted to explain about Prox Mox's. Yeah, Prox Mox is a hypervisor platform for running virtual machines on it. It's the latest and greatest out there that most people are using really no real cost associated to it for the free version. You can do quite a bit with just what you download from off of their website as opposed to other ones. Like I'm migrating away from Hyper-V, which is Microsoft Solution as a VM platform. And prior to that, I was working on a system that Ubuntu has called KVM. And then I'd had a third one that I was picking up. I'm on my fourth Hyper-Visor now. I know them all now, not that I want that knowledge, but I have it now. There are a lot of things in life, all the little things that you had to learn in life and a bunch of it. You just say, I guess let that go out of my brain and let other information in my brain. I don't have to remember that. So why do they call it a hyper and a visor? Where's the hyper and the visor? I know what hyper all that is. I know what a visor is, it's in my car. Yeah, for sure, I do too. I don't know, that's a good question. Somebody should look that up. Hyper visor, I don't know. I don't have an answer for that one. You can look it up anyhow. Today, you've got some interesting topics. First up, my daughter just bought a Tesla. And she said, Dad, I even bought the full self-driving package, which is dollars. So Elon Musk is, I think, recorded, if I'm not mistaken, $2 billion in income for the full self-driving. Because when you buy a Tesla, you have to buy extra the full self-driving package. And he's been promising since for a long time that they were going to have full self-driving. Sold the packages to everybody, but it's still not yet delivered full autonomous self-driving. And that reminds me, as we step into this particular topic, that autonomous cars, and I think you talked about this, that General Motors burned through $8 billion. And Waymo has been testing for 15 years, and only has Waymo's in four cities. We're wondering. Yeah, I think the industry has a hole. It's got over $100 billion invested on autonomy research at this point. And we have not still have not, has not been able to deliver on it. GM's crews were suspended completely. No. Now they've had supervised autonomous operations before, and they completely just suspended that. Ford and Volkswagen shut down Argo AI. They wrote off $3.5 billion by doing that. That's a huge loss for them. They just had to say, stop. We're not doing it anymore. And obviously Tesla still hasn't delivered as well. And they've taken the timeline for full self-driving off of their website. That tells you something. They're no longer saying when we're going to deliver that. It's a lot of work. And I've heard that there's some ungodly number of terabytes that a Waymo generates in a given day. It's like a movie of every camera and every direction. And it's like terabytes of data every single day. We're looking at a lot of information. And we still haven't perfected it. I feel like it's something good to shoot for. It's like going to the moon. I think that running into a couple issues, because it's taken so long and it's not really perfected yet, people don't trust it. The adoption level is real questionable, and they're not willing to pay that extra. What did your daughter pay? I can't remember, but I think the price tag is at least 2000. Yeah. I think that's on an annul fee. But I think that might be an annul fee. I don't know. Maybe our listeners can clue us in. But I think it's interesting that people see, unlike we trust elevators and we trust airplanes and stuff. And should we, I mean, you're going 500 miles an hour shooting through the sky in a bullet. Why aren't we petrified? And if you had a glass floor on an elevator, it would be horrible. That's what this driving reminds me of, because you're sitting there going, I hope you see there. I hope you see there. It's close to this car. It's just, I don't know that people are going to adopt it. I'm like that when my wife drives. That's funny. They're all stopped there. You don't have to wait to slam on your brakes at the very end. You can start slowing down knowing that it's a problem. And then, hey, you're going to have to get in that lane up there to turn in to where you're going. Anticipation is something you need to see the car or the other driver anticipate what you see happening before you. In other words, you don't need to accelerate until you're on the next car's rear end. You can let off the gas. And coast up a little bit. I think the question of the day is, what of autonomous cars are this decade's segue? Might be. We just don't see. And I think that the delay in solving the technical issues is adding. I think these two layer on top of each other and maybe a failure here. I can see where they're having difficulty. The compute requirements are amazingly difficult. They say it takes 2,500 plus tops or tarot operations per second. That's mathematical operations per second. In order to look at the field of view around it, all of the sensors, all of that is going on at the same time. That's just one problem having enough compute on board to be able to handle it. And there's power requirements come with that compute. So in order to run that compute, it takes two to five continuous power. Now, that's a bit of a house. A typical US home draws about 1.2 to 1.3 kilowatts continuously. So it's on the range of your house. So a car driving the road with that compute requires the same amount of power as a 2,000 square foot house. It's not a simple thing to get around. Yeah, it's pretty much like running a mobile data center in a car, a little mobile data center in a car. And it's pretty difficult. And that's why it's not going to happen for gas powered cars. Because in my brain, I thought about, I don't own an electric car. I thought about buying one, especially the new Tesla 3 Model 3, I think that's coming out. This is supposed to be under $15,000 and supposed to be an easy to purchase low cost. You eat one five 15. Pardon? 15,000? Yeah, 15 K. 15 K. Maybe somewhere 17 K. I don't know that range. No kidding. It's a cool little car. For just running around town, maybe that's an OK thing. But I'm a long business driver too. I want to go see the forest. I want to go drive out to the ocean. I want to drive over to see the desert. I want to go all places that I want to go. And I don't have to think about recharging my car. And the reasons why people are slow to adopt this too. And here's the other problem. I just told you what the power requirements were. Now a gas car, what does it have for power and alternator? And a battery. And that's just not a no power to keep up with all of this compute required. And then the other reason why gas cars are never going to be full autonomous driving, which I would love. I wish it could because I still like gas cars or maybe a hybrid would be cool. It's because they can't depend on continuous power from the engine. The engine surges. It has gas powered. It's got all kinds of issues with it. As opposed to an electric car, it's power on demand. It's smooth. There's no break in it. It's continuous power. They can control it. There's nobody has to push a brake pedal. You just release the power and it auto breaks. So I can see all the hurdles for why a gas car is never going to be fully autonomous. Bummer. The thing is, is that you have a big gas tank, which is essentially a bomb that you're carrying around. And if you drive over something, or if somebody comes and hits you from behind, or all these different things, and that leads me to another thing, is that insurance premiums for autonomous vehicle testing remains 400% higher than conventional vehicles due to the liability uncertainties. And it looks like AI is showing itself to be uninsurable for the most part. That's a problem. I did not know there's five levels of autonomous driving starting six, if you count, because they call level zero. That means there's no assistance whatsoever. And then they go into level one being driver assistance level two, being partial driving, level three, conditional driving, automation, level four is what we experience a lot. It'll drive itself on the freeway, but you can take over at any time. That's level four. Level five is no driver required in fact to even say that you don't have a steering wheel and you don't have any pedals. That's level five. That's it. That's chill. That would be freaky. Yeah. That would be freaky to have a car level five. Get this. Get in on the street. I don't know if you're ready. I don't think I don't know when that's going to happen. No, pretty crazy. And I was happy to think about a gas engine, but the more I read about it, no, it will never be autonomous driving, full autonomous driving on a gas engine. That's interesting. It's going to happen. Yeah. Didn't see that coming. The other thing I thought about was what chips, what are these chips take and power? I told you what they are. Tesla designs their own chips. Everyone wants their code, wants their chips, and I share that autonomous driving code with everyone because they want it to be worldwide if it all possible. But the cost of just one of those chips is, I thought originally I heard it was H-100s being put in cars at some point. And that's not true. No, it's these custom chips that are out there that do this, but they do require a ton of power in order to keep them going and dependability because of that. So, and they figured that they're targeting their newest chip, the AI-5 is their newest chip. They're targeting for its operational wattage to be around 250 watts. Then it becomes a little more reasonable because now they're seeing 700 to 800 watts. Okay, so you're at the top of what the continuous draw is on a battery system. Now, Jim, I have to ask. If you want to go any distance. You know how they have those conversion things for a 100 watt light bulb and it's only burning like 16 watts of energy, but yet it's delivering lumens that are of a 100 watt light bulb. Is there any of that going on? No, this is already calculated out because the total of available battery power in a car battery, the EV battery is a huge amount of kilowatts. They show what is its typical draw over a period, whatever they figure the mileage should be or distance that it should travel. You know, and it varies based upon the size of battery pack, but that's what they're figuring is that the average operations for an AI fully aware chip would be about 250, but I said up to 800 watts. Continuously. But continuously. What's the verdict? Is it a segment or is it a human revolution or metal? I'm still kind of hopeful to have it. And I don't know. Maybe we don't reach level five, Jim. Yeah, very possible that it cannot account for all the things are human kind of just for. And they're still waiting for the jet pack. Why that ever happened? We're supposed to be flying around or cars that drive on water. How about that hydrogen? But anyway, that autonomous vehicle thing is just not ready right now. Yeah, it's in the works though. So we'll just see where it goes. We remain hopeful. The car industries have all backed away from any kind of delivery day. It could be way, way out there. Yeah. Interesting. On the better news, India has backed down on its smartphone surveillance mandate. And that's an interesting topic in and of itself because it wasn't just, I think it was five days in the mandate phase. In other words, India said, look, you either install our government surveillance on every phone and users cannot remove it. And five days later, they said, never mind. Yeah, can you have Apple? It's happened. Yeah, pretty much put a, put a death sentence to it. As soon as apples said, no. Thank God for that. What if Apple would have said yes? A whole different story now. We wouldn't even probably heard about it. Probably would have just happened. We might not have heard about Russia did similar. Yeah, they have an app that they're forcing. I went and we didn't hear about it. Maybe Apple and those guys at Criass, I don't know. I know it's shocking to hear that, oh, there's a surveillance app that they tried to put on there and they got caught. Reality folks, this capability of getting into your phone has been there for years. I mean, Bill and I went to a demonstration at this group out of San Antonio. Yeah, it was an FBI showed up. Yeah, and they demonstrated in real time they could take over a phone in the back of the room. With that, they put a phone on every table on the table. And then they were, they demonstrated they could look at the data they could. Well, they turned on the camera on the microphone. Yeah, all of those things. So this has been around for more than probably 10, 5 to 10 years somewhere. But they had to be close to it. I mean, they had to be within physical proximity of the. And if there's a cell tower that they can get to the you're connected to, that's all it takes really. Yeah, if you're on AT&T there on AT&T or whatever it is, the internet on cell phone, they can get to it and they can take it over. Yeah, they can turn it into a listening device. They can hear everything that's going on and everything everyone says at the table in the house when your bedroom. Yeah, these things are pretty bad. Those things were actually going on until they started catching them. And then the phones would put a patch out and little by little they started getting it. But there's still problems. That technology. There is documented history that shows that the government is doing this, especially on. Legal cases like there was a case with the general VC crime family, they're part of the mafia where they activated the cell phones microphone, even when it was in an off state. Even when it's in an off state. Now that's pretty darn scary. This is court documented. So this is not like hearsay. This was they had to present. Make sure you kind of have travel with a fair day cage everywhere you go. You put your phone inside a little metal cage like kryptonite and Superman. He had to have it led lined in order for the kryptonite not to affect it. So the FBI put a bug on their phone. They called it the roving bug. And that's how they got access to it. They can put it they can put that on our phones any time they want to. We don't have any way to know that. I guess I must really sharpen somehow about knowing how to find bugs on our phones. But now they needed to have a warrant to do that. It's not like they just, hey, some FBI guy goes, hey, I got this tool. I'm going to go check this out. No, he's got to go get a warrant to be allowed to invade that privacy. Unless there's some exegence situations like he's going to blow up some big building you've heard about. And you need to get into that phone away. You can't get to a judge. They can do that at that point. So but generally they need a warrant for us. The average nobody's that aren't out to blow up any buildings in the government. We they're going to have to get a one of this kind of technology did prevent a terrorist or some sort of nefarious. How would you feel? How do you guys feel about that? Because I see both sides. And if you remember back to after 911, somebody would have said that there wasn't going to be another huge terrorist event for decades. He would be happy to hear that. And I know that for me, I go, you can bug my phone. I don't have anything to hide. And I would prefer that we're safe. Now, we were in a paranoid state of mind at the time. If the world was a scary place at that time. But I for one, shrug my shoulders to a certain extent about this. If we can keep the bad guys from doing bad things. The Patriot Act is what we're talking about there. Allowing all of this access and the FISA agreements. And that's exactly what was violated to go after take a look at some senators who just recently got outed all their phone records, all that just a whole bunch of stuff that they found out after the fact. They wouldn't have those capabilities had it not been for the Patriot Act. And that's why every year they they renew that Patriot Act. And they keep trying to say, hey, wait a minute. If you guys are going to violate this and use this technology or this ability in order to do political stunts, that can be a problem. Now, one thing that India has a problem with is they have a problem with cell phones being stolen. And that was the Trojan horse that brought this surveillance into being. And but I think that they can stop phone theft without permanent government back doors. And you have to hope you would hope after. The problem is what the governments do not only they shove the Patriot Act in at a time when they knew it would be popular. But then they abuse it. And you see governments left and right abusing. And for me, the best the best solution would be somehow they don't abuse it, but they're human and they're going to abuse it. But I'm an offense. I mean, I wasn't celebrating as much as I think you guys were that Apple took a stand and this is one for privacy and everything. I see both sides. Yeah, especially if it's your child who just was in a hijack situation on an airplane, like to be able to get into the phones of those hijackers and be able to mitigate a problem. And I would want to. I don't think we're done. We've already demonstrated tov if they can't. So this was above and beyond this application that I mean the law enforcement already uses a couple of applications that do exactly what they were trying to do by adding. But the difference was this is a custom application built for the Indian government for full time access to device identifiers, continuous tracking network monitoring. Root level privileges, non removable system installation, tight integration with their CER national database and remote blocking and disabling of any device. That is way beyond being able to surveil your phone. So when you put it that way, Jim, he put it that way is out of control. Yeah, it was interesting that a sovereign nation was basically stopped from doing something of this nature by a high tech company, which just shows the power of the high tech company today and getting what they want. And being able to take their ball and bat and go home and say, hey, not a problem. We're not going to participate in this and we'll lose access to 600 cell phone users, right? Yeah, I think it was a blast. I trust the whole thing about Apple complying. That's not really what was going or going against them by not complying. They had practical reasons. If they applied this software and all of a sudden they open a new attack vectors on their phones, now become less secure because they can't control that out. They have a now a fragmented software build. They have a special build for India and it's not the same build in all the other countries. Now they have to maintain a different build. That's just a business perspective issue here. And then they have to be forced now to coordinate with the government. Anytime they have a problem, they want to custom down for them. And then we can set us model for the entire platform. Nobody's going to feel like they can trust it anymore. If I'm Apple, I'm making that argument, those four points from a business perspective. Apparently some 14 million people in the on the eve of this being implemented actually voluntarily downloaded the app on their phones. That they wouldn't be stolen from them. Is that the lot? Yeah, that's supporting your argument, Gus. They wanted them to be able to go after back guys. It just supported your argument, Gus. Yeah, I might not think like you're thinking. There's probably a better way. If you have a serial number, there was a lot of big issues with, for instance, Intel had a number, a serial number of their chips. And you could trace who was running serial number X, Y and Z. And you could figure things out. And that lost that battle who knows it still could be there, but there's some way of getting a fingerprint of a windows Intel or an Intel chip. But that leads me to believe that there, there may be other ways that these vendors. Now, if you lose your phone and Apple helps you find it or whatever, and the stolen phones are no longer valuable. That is the type of, that is the method by which we're most likely to obviate the need for this technology or this type of. I can't resell it. We can't resell it. So, build with your forensic background and all. Could a trace intercept an IME number because that's unique to every phone. Does a trace show that? Do you know? I don't even know. It certainly does in its communications with the mothership, the IMI, IMI has to be there. And that is how the telcos provision a phone. That's how they know that you're on a Verizon or an AT&T or T mobile is that IMI. And although those those IME eyes are are unique numbers, the predominance now is that those numbers are actually pseudo numbers and they're created by the vendor. And they aren't even real physical numbers off of the box. Yeah, they're electronic IME eyes. For our listeners and IMEI is an international mobile equipment identity number. And it's a 15 digit serial number that identifies your mobile phone. We've all got it. So, if you're wondering what an IMEI is. That's what the when you change when you change from T mobile to AT&T or Verizon, you have to give them that number that they know. They know where to provide the service. Certainly those are encrypted methods. They're encrypted under the covers. But certainly there are packets, Jim, that go back and forth. And those packets are protected by RSA encryption methods. And which were somewhat fearful of quantum disclosing sometime in the future. But that's not this particular topic. But my my bringing it up only was that if I'm the India saying that was one of the main reasons why they wanted to discuss the map on there is because they wanted to track stolen phones. It just seems like it doesn't make sense. Then hold water does it guys. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, let's let's move on to something on a sideline that's interesting. Our friends over at OpenAI. They're pretty smart people smartest guys in the room. They have figured out how to have investments that are somewhat circular. It reminds me Gus of the old who was it? What cartoon or what three three stooches with the $10 bill. Yeah. Yeah, you should show that. Yeah, it's fun. That particular routine is still copyrighted and owned by Sony. I'm not I mean, if we put it on our podcast, but you guys can go out and YouTube it and Google it for the three stooches and the $10 bill. It's pretty illustrative and essentially that's what OpenAI did. Jim, you've built a nice diagram around that and we'll pop that in here so we can take a look at it. You want to. Yeah, that diagram pretty much shows that Nvidia. A series of investments. First it starts with Nvidia and they agree to invest up to $100 billion in OpenAI. Then OpenAI turns around and buys the Nvidia chips from Nvidia. The investment when it comes back out again goes back to Nvidia. They just basically get the revenue back to them, but they did get a percentage or a stake in the equity stake in OpenAI. They benefit of both that one. OpenAI goes out and inks a deal for $300 billion and it's a cloud deal with Oracle with know up front costs. They get full access to this platform with no no install card know up front costs whatsoever. And then and Oracle is doing that because the revenue from open AI gives them credibility in the cloud spaces because they're trying to compete against AWS and Microsoft. So now that money comes in there. They're willing to give away some of that space at a little bit of loss. They can get some presence in that market. Then Nvidia goes out and buy $6.3 billion of cloud services from core weave and then core weave then already they already own 7% of core weave. And so they're investing $6.3 billion in a company they own 7% of 7% of already the money goes to them, but it actually comes back to them to a certain amount. Then OpenAI decides they're going to pay core weave up to 22.4 billion dollars for cloud compute power. But the issue is that these companies can go make an agreement with their friends and say, look, I'm going to start this company and we need customers. Will you be our customer? Yeah, I'll be your customer. I'll sign an agreement for something in the future and then they go. And then they go to another company and they do the same thing and some friends, let's just say there's a there's a triad there's three of them. They can basically just like the three stages that you talked about. They can they can spawn agreements and no revenue is generated by any of these companies, but yet they go out and they take. Wow, it looks like you guys are got a 20 20 billion dollars worth of revenue right there and it's like these are all in these agreements and after you've you've got all of this revenue, then they go out and they fundraise saying. We've got all this revenue and they create this valuation of the company that's huge. And then they go out and this is where the problem occurs. If this is all private funding, that's one thing, but a lot of these companies are public companies. Okay, and if they're public companies, then they're basically fleecing public shareholders of their hard earn greenbacks by essentially doing these shenanigans that's three card money. And they're creating these huge valuations for these companies and they haven't made any money yet, but yet they have these balance sheets that are like enormous. Yeah, that is scary, but if you what's the difference question for you guys what's the difference between what we're seeing here with the AI sort of insescialist investing and what we see out in the marketplace black rock on JP Martin chase and they both are owned by state street and it just I'm struggling to see the difference just seems like an old strategy just being done in it. Bernie Mattov. He was perfect in this. It was all intertwined and he basically was doing this type of punsy scam where they go out and they do all these arrangements and then it appears on paper that they're making this huge amount of money. And as long as you have enough money to pay the first level of the multi layer marketing deal as long as you have enough money to pay them to get it started. It creates something huge and then they all think that they're going to work their way out of it. I'm just doing this to get started and then once I go legit, then everything's going to be I'm going to make the money back and I just need this seed capability. And then like Bernie got to where he didn't have the money to pay Peter. Yeah, the difference is that that's illegal. What these guys are doing is perfectly legal. They may know. And it is a little it's a little different than what you were talking about with black rock investing and other companies and then feeding contracts to them and getting that money back in that way. We've seen that for years that happens all the time. This particular thing that they're bringing to light is about hiding debt and keeping it off your balance sheet. This is the difference. That is what is completely different about this and the perfect example was recently when XAI raised $20 billion for the Colossus 2 project. That's super computer project that they've got going on. What XAI did is they created a shell company and for that shell company to go out and to become. You'll see what it's for in a moment. There's what they call a special point for God even with that thing is called now it's an SPV. What are those special purpose vehicle that's what they're called. They create a special purpose vehicle to go out and raise the $20 billion. And of that and video puts in $2 billion. Videos in the middle of this too. I want to get in on it. I want to get some money off of this too. I'm going to go ahead and invest in this. The SPV goes around and purchase all the chips from Nvidia. The money goes back to Nvidia again. We put two billion in and they spend $20 billion to buy all the chips. Oh, but they don't buy it for XAI doesn't buy it themselves. The holding company, the shell company buys it. They become the rental agency and in turn XAI turns around and rents the chips from the holding company or from the shell company. Now on XAI's balance sheet, there's no debt because they don't own anything. And you would think that these billionaires could actually do something that would commit their billions and these things. Because Jim us sub billionaires. Yeah, I know. Us sub billionaires. We can't get away with doing that because they're going to look at us and they're going to say, but Bill, where's that money coming from known to be a sub billionaire. I don't have that cloud and the people think that you are going to be able to do it. All these billionaires who do these play these shenanigans are essentially leveraging what we believe to be their wealth and that they're good for it. And they probably are good for it. But if there's a bubble in AI and everything bursts, then we're going to be looking around and there's going to be, for instance, it seems like I've heard some rumors that open AI has almost a trillion dollars worth of projects. If they have a trillion dollars worth of projects with a whole bunch of partners, does their revenue support trillion dollars worth of projects when their revenue now doesn't support 100. Yeah, the math, the math doesn't make sense now in that situation. But in the XIA ideal that I was talking about, it does make sense. Here's the good part. XAI gets 20 billion dollars worth of super compute and no debt on the books positive for them and video gets a 20 billion dollar sale equity in the shell company positive for them investors get rental income positive for them debt holders on the debt get interest payments back by the hardware positive for them. Although this is all good and everybody could say, yay, everybody wins. It's a great deal except for a AI XAI fails, but they're not likely going to fail that not XAI. But who knows that's what we thought in the mortgage. I think in 2008 they had the big mortgage fraud deal or the bubble or the big to fail security back real estate. They just get a bunch of bad loans and they just pack it to them up and sell them to the public market. And that's how they fleece the public markets and then those shareholders, they basically took companies and built like public companies that were holders of all of this securities back real estate and consequently when it takes years to figure out those loans aren't performing anymore. And now the real estate we have to go repossess the real estate and then you start figuring out that the value drop and there's no money for Peter to pay for. That's what we were saying those GPUs the value that GPUs are diminishing as soon as they get installed from that point because new technologies around the corner same issue. The problem line is as long as the major AI companies don't fail the bubble stays up. It works. But if any one of those fail big problems. That's where you have to trace it to find out if somebody who bought a public security is dependent upon that and it's a pun then it becomes a Ponzi scam. As long as there are all sophisticated industrial investors there's no harm no foul because they're big boys and they can they can deal with it as soon as it ends up when the House of cards falls or the bubble burst it ends up being the shareholders who get screwed. And then the government steps in to to big to fail and all the taxpayers end up having to bail out the bad decisions. One of the entities on there's an ebius and they're another one company and the only reason why bring that one up is that they're getting money from AI and they're again I mean. This is a company the one that with the that's flagged under Netherlands. They invest in Nvidia and video invest in them obviously they buy chips from Nvidia and then they run a platform cloud platform where you can rent time on those GPUs. They are in Europe and in the EU that's considered those are all considered tier two countries they can get access to only a certain amount of the highest level chips they're limited to like 50,000 H 100 and things like that there's caps on what they can buy. They're all on allocation yeah. But if they even get it they some of them haven't even got any of that yet but tier three countries like China Russia North Korea they aren't allowed to get access to those high on chips at all they're running like some old be 800s and things like that it's all they're allowed to buy from Nvidia they found a work around because with nebius they're a cloud platform they rinse it. Rinse out access to those high on ships now China now can rent time on that on their cloud for those high on ships now that's a that's a loophole now they've gotten around it and I don't think that's what the government export laws were really wanting to see happen to see how all that shakes out. Do you think that the Chinese are benefiting from those chips because they are getting access to chips that were purchased and maybe even running in the Netherlands but they have access to them because they're part of the funding of that company they end up intrinsically with access you end up with the Chinese having access to chips that they were not supposed to have. Absolutely and the only upside that I could think of to this old thing was at least China is not going to go out and invade Taiwan because they already got access to the ships maybe that'll prevent them from doing that but I don't know where that's going to shake out but now it's a violation of US export law they're not really selling them to China but they're getting access to the chips. So yeah just another example of how sometimes policy lags behind technology because no one was thinking that this rental market would be there when that law was written just got to catch up. Yeah it's pretty sneaky. Yeah it's all incestuous all of it is. What do you guys think about this brick storm that is targeting US infrastructure? Yeah that's a big topic to me because one of my companies is heavily into the ICS industrial control systems that are with wastewater plants and power plants, dams all those critical infrastructure entities out there. To me this is close to my heart because I can tell them for years you guys do not have enough security and you violate your own air gap principles over and over again you're an air gaping means that the most critical systems have to be completely disconnected from anything internet connected or to non secure. They are physically disconnected Jim they're just wirelessly connected. They're just wireless coming back. I've seen it worse than that though I've seen that they're both they have two interfaces on the same router one is never supposed to see the other if you're an administrator you can go between those two interfaces. They just know they just they have exposed themselves the minute they wanted real time remote management that's one of the things that drove this thing. Yeah the ability to manage the out of hand networks that are allowing them access into things and then that out of band that's only for management that's only for troubleshooting but then you end up allowing those other things unbeknownst to you in over over 10 years ago. I saw this was a car right coming at some point and I think they knew it too and all the conferences they always talk about it but no one did anything. And that's the big problem. They all they didn't minor things put better firewalls in place those kinds of things but the internal people who are building these networks are not security people. No these are plant plant managers that work on systems that control valves and water and sewage and electricity motors and that thing they are not security people. And they'll hire somebody to come in and look at it and they'll make some changes but then they leave hope they leave these holes of it and the first point you wrote up was wireless yeah wireless is one of them. And I've helped even build those systems and told them hey this is dangerous what you guys are doing but we put them in place anyhow I'm not telling you where they're at. The US government and governments in general I'll just go over some of the things that we've done over the years I started at Lockheed in 1978 and we had very high security for anything that was classified even general access to government networks. And government networks is for official use only when you go between what we call the high side and the low side those are physically bifurcated they are physically separate of you have the secret network or higher that secret network has no wires or wireless that touches the low side the lower echelon of security. The government's pretty good at that let me tell you the links that we went to at Lockheed to secure things do you remember those IBM selectrikes of in years gone by. And they had a little ball the little ball on them and they had the characters and they spend the font balls and they'd spend and then they'd hit the platen and with with and the ribbon. Those IBM selectrikes were toward the backbone of everything before we had word processors and even became printers were made with those daisy wheel or those type of print balls but think about it there's a secretary or a technologist typing on one of these IBM selectrikes and what they figured out is every time you hit the A key the B key the S key the E key the C key the E T and the T. And the T key secret if you were monitoring the power line from outside the location you were monitoring the power line they showed that you could actually monitor what someone was typing on an IBM selectrike because of the power surges and the exact type of power electrical sort of had some sort of an electrical finger. Well, it had a lot of air. Oh, I swear to God. That's what we did. We put power conditioners in front of all those IBM selectrikes now what's power conditioner. It's like taking it the way we do now where we have a UP we're plugged into shore power or the electric company. And then we take it to a UPS and there's a sine wave UPS and there's just a regular UPS that does a cutover of the sine wave the ones that we're talking about today or sine wave where the batteries are being charged but the batteries are actually the source of the power continuous and it's building a sine wave out of the inverter and consequently you can't really see what's behind it and that's essentially what we were doing we were putting in the power conditioner that insulated the power line from being monitored that they could not hear what we were typing on our IBM selectrike typewriters. The US government and the security infrastructure is very keen and then where we had our computer rooms you'd have to go in and there was two doors. Why were there two doors because they were fair day cages they were Ferris cages that stopped the emanation of electromagnetic signals or our signals from going in and out and then guess what else if you wanted a signal to go into there you had to basically take it from a digital signal convert it to an optical take it through the hole in the wall pull it in convert it back out to digital I bought these devices and I built a lot of these different systems versus the company I don't know if they're still in existence they were called Versatron but they had fiber isolation systems that your data coming into the building went through fiber that the emanations that were happening inside the fair day cage could not emanate out through any of the physical copper wire. That's amazing it's a great story when I was in Iraq Afghanistan and Kuwait and we would have the secret network called the SIPPER and we'd have the NIPPER network the insecure one and they would have different color of cables they'd have different because out in the wartime out in the forward operating bases you just have these the SIPPER NIPPER networks the green was the NIPPER which was unclassed. And the secret network was always red we'd have different color cables and you could tell and if you went to an army base or something like that a forward operating base they had tents and they were operating out of tents and you could follow the cables on the ground by their color to determine which color was and they had to monitor physically all of those high secure certain areas of the world. So we had to make sure that the circuit cables to make sure they weren't tampered with somebody didn't put a splice on the in the middle of it all the way down to the field equipment that was those separation parameters and even when we would take and I'll bore you with one more little story. The finger prints and iris scans off of the bad guys in Iraq and those went into a system that was classified it was like a dossier system on who this guy was and he was a bad guy and it would tell who else he knew and what the bad things were. It was like an intelligence gathering thing on people and you'd take fingerprints and you'd put them into this system that had this dossier on these people. That dossier would get sent across that had fingerprints and iris scans on it and it would come across to the US and then we would take those fingerprints and we'd put them in the FBI's IAFIS system which is where all of our fingerprints are if you've ever been fingerprinted your fingerprint is in Clarksburg West Virginia and iris scans and all that biometric information goes there. When it went to the DOD biometric fusion center it was it was it had to take the classified information of the dossier out but the fingerprints the biometric fingerprints were unclassified. They would have what's called a mercurious solution to to basically pull out the classified information from the SIPPernat from and bifurcate the intel information from the biometric the biometric was unclassified it's your fingerprint iris scan but the dossier about you was classified so that would come in as a package but then they wanted to send all those fingerprints over the FBI you had to transfer that information from the high side over to the low side and that's what was done with all these things in the US government system of security we kept everything physically air gaped and where there was a transfer they called a mercury solution and they would take that data and extricate it from the classified data and then move it over to the green side and then it could continue on but there were all kinds of safeguards for it to happen today in the commercial world where you're dealing gem with municipal utilities districts and electric companies and they're not quite as rigid as the government not rigid at all. So, you know, this brick storm malware is a bit different than any other it doesn't go in and immediately cause damage what this thing does is it burrows into these industrial control systems and skate environments and then it sits dormitally quiet and what is doing at this point it's not trying to smash down the door and say hey I'm here and I'm going to cause a lot of damage it doesn't do that at all it's very quiet it's sitting in the system and then it is watching how the system functions and documenting all that that it can understand it better they don't understand enough about our control systems to launch an attack maybe they do at this point but the purpose of this is the gain information but can use this in pre-war environment where they just cause havoc within our country if especially if they knew that we were going to attack them or something they could keep us pretty distracted if they could shut down our power grids open up dams do all kinds of crazy things put so as water into our main water systems all the stuff that can happen remotely I mean good guys can do this stuff the good guys could do this stuff the bad guys can do it eventually that that's something they're very very concerned about because they know they've been there for a while and like any intrusion by a state actor they lay dormitally quiet on purpose and they may be in that system not just months they could have been there for years before they could become detected because the point is don't raise suspicion don't cause any activity that's going to draw any attention see so found them somehow see so is the cybersecurity and infrastructure security agency always forget that one so hard one you know they they have documented exactly what the software is doing and put out a warning to everybody but hey if we don't put those those protections in place they're just going to keep doing this to us and and building our card in it doesn't have any immediate effect it's not a ransomware that happens it's not it's just an embedded system on its invention yeah it's a sleeper cell yeah exactly what's the answer how do we answer get get cyber put cyber security prevention activities I was IOT devices that are controlling those valves that are controlling all the different things inside of a utility district or what or any infrastructure their IOT yeah it's a network but those networks are supposed to be bifurcated they're supposed to be separated from the an air what Jim calls an air cap and and a lot of times we just get comfortable for instance to have one big router with a bunch of switches and a VLAN that says this VLAN is for the municipal IOT gear and this VLAN is to get to the internet and it's like oh we've separated it we we've separated it because it's on a different VLAN yeah no a red box a super net box does not ever plug into in any way shape or form a green box it is it's physically air gapped and separate and commercial enterprises you talk to a router jockey and he's a router switch jockey and he's going to say oh yeah I can buy for gay I can keep that separated you logically can keep it separated but what happens if somebody gets in and changes that VLAN to be able to connect to this other VLAN you can do it why because it's inside the box you've got both cables going in the box who's there to say your logical configuration doesn't violate the physical separation and that's where the trouble is is these guys think that they can engineer all of this stuff in their head and configure it instead of the keyboard of a router or a switch and keep things separated can't do it you know I've seen it's like the suffering inside of control rooms in these wastewater treatment plants where they'll have what there's two networks what we call the OT network and the IT network and they'll have two PC sitting side by side ones connected to the IT network that's the one that actually gets to the internet but that's where all their work orders are their research and plan information as they can pull up manuals and things like that on that machine and the OT network which is another machine which has what they call the human machine interface on it that controls all the valves into switches and the motors and all those things can make good things happen and bad things happen both and they're not ever connected together but they sit side by side and what do you think it looks like on the backside of that that location that desk where they're sitting it's a massive wires with two different switches sitting there and it's not hard to unplug one plug it over here and now this is on the other side yes now granted you have to know how to sign an IP address because there is no DHCP going on there everything's manually addressed and for people who don't know the IP address so anyway the bottom line is that we need to take security seriously absolutely let me ask you a question Gus when do you still see the guys who come out the next day guys who come out the meter the old meter readers the Southern California Electric and the guys who come out and read your gas meter your water meter you know I don't you don't see them how come you don't it's all automated it's all done remotely it's all wireless and it's done remotely or they drive through the neighborhood and collect all of them wirelessly those systems are connected to what if you want to turn off service you just flick a switch but it's like all that control mechanism is interconnected and it's very hard to separate them and keep them separated unless you have had years in security so when we built the the our nuclear weapons the Manhattan projects when we created the Manhattan project we separated all of the various functions that nobody knew everything right I was involved in a lot of those sort of programs special access required and whereas I did the networking component for hundreds of these political survivability locations I I was designing the Versatron gear all the isolation of the data and that the Russians couldn't listen when it went into a fair take cage I did all of that part but I did not know where they were located why because they don't want any single person to have all that information even back in the 30s and 40s when we were developing the Manhattan project when we were developing security we were developing protocols and systems to separate that not everyone knew everything about everything because he is and who is it that was the most susceptible what was the security people who ended up being the security problems because they had access to too many things they just kept it very narrow and that's exactly what Jim's talking about here is air capping systems and making certain that nobody has the entire formula right yeah and even when it's air gap there's work around that unfortunately users just violate all the time and that is use of VPNs to get in to the most critical systems because you want to be able to manage a problem from home that convenience opens up a huge attack vector for state actors because if they can compromise your password to get into your VPN they are into those systems and that is happening constantly we have got to get better use not it's just not a technology issue it's also a human issue we have to address both sides of the house now it's too easy we are trying to build a technology solution that will address all of this and we are talking to two big companies to hopefully get that place down the road but the problem is now is that networks are built to be accessible firewalls do a good job of stopping things coming in but they don't do a good job of finding out what's going out and deciding whether or not it should really go out and that's where the problem seems to be is that if they can violate access through your password and then set up a command and control out the internet that's freely open then you can't stop them if you don't see them if it all looks like normal traffic they go unseen and they can then do whatever they want to with their malware in the military and the military and the military environment guess what one of our biggest problems was these guys had their their iPads and their music boxes and iPods and they would plug those iPods into the classified computer because they could and then usb sticks usb sticks because I mean an iPod is essentially just a usb device of usb the large usb stick in the military we had to essentially disable physically all usb connections to a computer when it was in the classified environment why? because green sitters who are what we call military personnel they're like on watch and they're like they're losing power they need a charge or they want to play it on the computer they just walk over and plug their usb device and boom you've just moved your iPod from the public network at one point and now you've plugged it into the secret network and that was happening much that they just had to completely do away with usb interfaces in government computers yeah you just created another path out of the network when you do that yeah yeah I mean we're basically it mandient attributes a brick storm to Chinese advanced persistent threat group within with military connections and they just I mean it's very much like what they do when they send a balloon over our country to float over to identify where certain emanations where's the nuclear devices because you can uncover stuff like that if you have sophisticated monitoring equipment and if you can just successfully put a balloon over the United States and it follows and goes to every US military installation and listens to that records the location then they know where all of our infrastructure is located well I could never happen because we would just shoot it down we might wait for it to cross the entire country first now we might we might oh that's a good analogy scary stuff to bring a little bit of hope back into this as we close that out a brick storm is a wake up call the nation state actors are already inside the network and that sounds bad and it is bad but there's still hope because we have plenty of time to harden our ICS systems industrial control systems and do it now and there are new technologies like I just alluded to there with hot zero technology that's coming out and we could do some packing lifetime containment things like that hope is not gone is that is that hop hop zero stuff is that basically controlling how far your data can travel exactly yep we can tell it where to stop so back guys who get in thinking making just X filled train have a GPS on the packet or something fortunately it's we set a death time or two it's a natural thing to pack at lifetime how how long is the lifetime of this packet should it be going out should it go as far as the firewall to get out into the public network or should it stop prior to that should it stay in the data center inside the computer the the company's network or should it go out onto the internet those are the questions that's pretty cool you got it so hope to see it soon yeah should it be a lot of it sure is fun to reminisce about the past and yeah and a lot of the problems that we're having with security today are pretty simple it's like if you don't want somebody to look inside your Camano keep it inside your house don't go outside with your Camano I mean there's very simple things and that's one of the things that people think oh everything's complex no it really is binary it's either your exposed or you're not exposed and where it gets complicated though is what we talked about is when the human element yeah who's going to click on an email on a link or you can have the plug in their iPod to the US government secret network and move all the secrets around yeah they're willing participate it breaks your security because they're lazy it's not just lazy maybe they're actually profiting from it dude that's been shown yeah but that's truly what's happened lately yeah